1kx Tokenomics Proposal

Based on feedback received on the previous proposal, we present an updated version for the community’s consideration.

After much discussion with the authors of the rework proposal, it is clear that there are some incompatible differences between our proposals. We therefore present this as an alternative to the rework, and believe our proposal will lead to better outcomes for the entire Rocket Pool community.

The fundamental difference between our proposals is in maintaining the essential RPL collateral requirement, which is critical for protecting Rocket Pool’s decentralized validator set. The rework proposal’s abandonment of this requirement, and lack of alternative safeguards, exposes the protocol to the risk of centralized takeover.

Additionally, removing the collateral requirement, which has historically been the primary value driver for RPL, exposes the token to significant price risk. Without RPL collateral, the demand for RPL is likely to decrease sharply. We expect significant reductions in staked RPL should the rework proposal be adopted, leading to increased supply on the market and exacerbating the downward pressure on price.

A lower price for RPL diminishes the protocol’s economic security, making it cheaper for malicious actors to acquire a controlling stake in the token. This increased affordability heightens the risk of governance attacks, as attackers can more easily accumulate enough tokens to influence or override protocol decisions. Consequently, the removal of the collateral requirement not only threatens the stability and value of RPL but also risks compromising the security and integrity of the entire governance system.

We are not the only ones to reach this conclusion. NodeSet, in their review of the tokenomics rework, also flagged the “extreme centralization risk” inherent to this approach. Despite receiving the same feedback from multiple parties the authors are nonetheless pushing forward with this risky and economically-flawed proposal.

Instead of abandoning the RPL collateral requirement and the protection it provides, our proposal transforms it into a strategic asset, leveraging it to drive protocol growth while enabling RPL holders to earn yield on their RPL. This approach not only safeguards decentralization but also fuels expansion and rewards for the community.

Introduction

Our proposal’s overarching aim is to position Rocket Pool as the premier choice in the Liquid Staking Token (LST) space, appealing to both Node Operators (NOs) and rETH holders. To achieve this, our strategy focuses on five critical pillars:

  1. Unlock TVL Growth by Enabling Efficient Scaling for NOs: Our approach removes the burdensome RPL exposure requirement, empowering NOs to scale their operations more efficiently. By decoupling NO performance from RPL price volatility, we create a more stable and attractive environment for potential operators.
  2. Harness Competition to Optimize rETH’s APY: We leverage market competition among NOs to enhance rETH’s APY.
  3. Introduce Scalable Bond Curves: Our proposal includes more scalable sublinear bond curves, enabling NOs to deploy more ETH from the pool. This innovation increases capital efficiency, allowing Rocket Pool to handle greater volumes and drive further growth.
  4. Enhance Decentralization Protections: We introduce robust mechanisms to safeguard against centralization, ensuring the protocol remains decentralized and resilient. These protections are crucial for maintaining the integrity and trustworthiness of Rocket Pool.
  5. Allow RPL holders and pDAO to earn RPL yield: We give RPL holders and pDAO the opportunity to earn yield on their RPL, providing additional rewards to the community and ongoing protocol revenue to pDAO.

To achieve these objectives, we propose the implementation of a delegated staking system. This system empowers RPL holders to delegate their RPL to NOs, earning a share of validator commissions in return. This in turn allows NOs to scale up without any direct RPL exposure.

Components

Delegated Staking

One major factor that has constrained Rocket Pool’s growth is the requirement for a single entity to provide ETH, RPL, and possess the technical ability to operate Ethereum validators. While one solution might be to abandon the collateral requirement entirely, this approach leaves the protocol vulnerable to centralized takeover, which is not a viable option.

A more effective strategy is to separate these roles, allowing one party to provide the ETH and another to provide the RPL. The protocol has already taken initial steps in this direction with the introduction of whale marriages. However, whale marriages are inherently flawed because they are only accessible to large ETH and RPL holders, making them a centralizing force within the protocol.

Delegated staking rectifies this issue by enabling any RPL holder—large or small—to participate in delegation and earn a share of validator rewards in exchange for providing the NO’s collateral. By democratizing whale marriages, we allow the entire Rocket Pool ecosystem to participate, rather than limiting involvement to large ETH/RPL holders.

Commission Structure

Similar to UARS, our proposal divides the validator commission (i.e. the rewards that do not go directly to rETH) into several shares:

Share name Description
no_share Paid to NO in ETH
delegate_share Paid to NO’s delegates in RPL (bought with delegate_share ETH)
extra_reth_share Paid to rETH in ETH
recollateralization_share Used to purchase protocol-owned RPL when NO is undercollateralized

The max_commission_rate parameter is set by the pDAO, controlling the maximum commission that NOs can charge and setting an upper limit on commissions at the protocol level. The current commission rate of 14% is higher than Lido but the full deposit pool demonstrates high demand at this price point. We propose leaving the max_commission_rate at 14% and reducing as necessary according to demand.

Each NO sets their own no_share when establishing their node, which must be lower than the max_commission_rate.

The remaining value - calculated as the difference between max_commission_rate and no_share - is strategically allocated between delegate_share and extra_reth_share, optimizing incentives for both NOs and delegates while enhancing rETH’s APY.

Illustrative examples of the distribution:

To attract delegation, NOs will need to increase their delegate_share. The only way to do this is by reducing their no_share, which also increases the extra_reth_share, thus enhancing rETH’s APY. This system incentivizes NOs to boost their validator rewards and delegates to increase their delegation rewards.

Our proposal harnesses market forces and the rational self-interest of participants, creating a self-reinforcing cycle of growth and increased rETH APY. This market-driven approach ensures sustainable and organic expansion of the Rocket Pool ecosystem.

If a NO is undercollateralized - more on this in the next section - a portion of their rewards (recollateralization_share) is used to purchase protocol-owned RPL on behalf of pDAO, bringing them back to the minimum collateralization ratio automatically.

Collateralisation

We propose retaining the 10% of borrowed ETH collateral ratio, with modifications that simplify its maintenance for NOs. The collateral requirement provides numerous benefits to the protocol. Rather than abandoning it, we have designed our system to transform this requirement into an asset rather than a liability.

To create new validators, a NO must be at or above the min_collateral_ratio. A NO who falls below this ratio will need to attract delegation or purchase their own RPL to create more validators.

Fluctuations in RPL price can temporarily push a NO over the max_collateral_ratio. In this scenario, the NO cannot receive additional delegated RPL but can launch more validators if they have sufficient ETH. Launching new validators will reduce their collateralization ratio, bringing it below the maximum and allowing them to receive additional RPL delegation. This ensures the system never becomes deadlocked.

Can add validators Can receive delegation
Under min collateral :x: :white_check_mark:
In between min and max :white_check_mark: :white_check_mark:
Over max collateral :white_check_mark: :x:

To further simplify the process for NOs, new NOs will not be required to provide collateral in advance for their first n validators. They can launch their validators without staked or delegated RPL, and their node will be collateralized with pDAO-owned RPL. This approach makes RPL collateral entirely invisible for new NOs, balancing the simplicity of onboarding with the necessary protection against centralization. The collateral requirement only becomes visible for larger NOs.

While some NOs might attempt to use sock puppets and run multiple nodes to exploit the collateral-free validators, this strategy would prevent them from benefiting from the increased yield provided for lower ETH bonds. The economically rational decision would be to run as many validators as possible in a single megapool and attract delegation to reach the required collateral amount.

Protocol-owned RPL

If a NO is below the min_collateral_ratio and has not attracted sufficient RPL delegation (or purchased their own RPL), the protocol will act as the “delegate of last resort.” In this scenario, a share of the NO’s commission - the recollateralization_share - is used to purchase RPL on behalf of the pDAO, which is then automatically delegated to the NO. The automatic purchases continue until the NO has reached the minimum delegation. This guarantees that as long as the NO continues earning rewards, they will eventually reach the minimum collateralization level even if they cannot attract delegation.

The RPL owned by the pDAO provides additional RPL yield to the protocol, potentially allowing RPL inflation to be reduced to zero in the future. This also gives the pDAO new tools to incentivize the type of decentralized NOs the protocol wishes to attract. Protocol-aligned NOs can be made more profitable than centralized entities, counterbalancing the economies of scale enjoyed by larger operators.

For example, the pDAO can delegate to protocol-aligned operators (e.g., home stakers) at a lower delegate_share than the prevailing market rate non-aligned NOs are required to offer. This increases the profitability for that NO, giving home stakers a level playing field against centralized operators.

While not a part of our current proposal, this lays the foundation for a future “community RPL pool” which automatically manages delegation to NOs and acts as a “delegate rewards smoothing pool”.

Sublinear Bond Curves

To accelerate protocol growth, we propose building upon the foundation laid in the Megapools and Bond Curve RPIPs. Our research, summarized below, shows there is further room to safely enhance capital efficiency through the use of sublinear bond curves. This optimization allows NOs to deploy more ETH from the pool, driving greater protocol growth.

We propose that depending on the total number of validators for a given node operator v, the total collateral requirement in ETH C(v) is given by: C(v) = C(1)*v^p

For example, using C(1)=4 ETH and p=⅔:

Currently, about 35% of nodes run one validator, so there would be no change unless they added more validators. However, for 20% of node operators who operate 80% of the validators, the reduction is 50% and potentially more:

The Left axis/blue line shows the ratio of proposed collateral needed per operator (operating v validators on the x-axis) divided by the current collateral needed when assuming 4ETH per validator. The right axis/gray bars show the current distribution, e.g. about 1200 operators running one validator. The conclusion is that compared to the world of vanilla LEB4, relatively less collateral is needed as the number of validators per node increases.

For efficiency and improved user experience we propose providing a list of bond amounts at rounded values, as opposed to implementing the curve in Solidity and allowing NOs to choose any point on the curve.

We recommend introducing a cap on the total amount of ETH a node operator can borrow to limit protocol risk.

Deposit Queue

We anticipate that our proposed changes will lead to significant growth in validator count. Therefore, it is crucial to address how we handle both full and empty deposit pool scenarios.

Previously, the protocol increased the commission rate for a NO when the deposit pool was full. However, this system had a fundamental flaw: the increased commission applied for the lifetime of the validator, leading to two major issues. First, NOs were incentivized to wait for higher commissions before launching validators. Second, the extra commission was taken from rETH’s APY, effectively reducing returns for rETH holders.

Our approach retains the benefits of incentivizing NOs to add validators while eliminating the drawbacks. To motivate NOs to add validators, the pDAO will delegate RPL to potential new NOs. The pDAO can offer to delegate at gradually reduced commission rates until the first NO accepts the offer, effectively providing a subsidy without the need for further coordination. This method ensures that NOs receive the necessary incentives to add validators quickly and efficiently, maintaining the overall effectiveness of the system.

This new system offers two significant improvements over the old one:

  1. The cost of the subsidy is paid from the pDAO’s RPL yield, not from rETH’s APY.
  2. The pDAO can remove the subsidy when it is no longer required, ensuring flexibility and efficiency.

In scenarios where the deposit queue is empty, and we have a queue of NOs ready to add validators as soon as protocol ETH becomes available, we propose several options depending on our optimization goals:

  • To optimize for decentralization, prioritize NOs with the lowest validator count
  • To optimize for rETH APY, prioritize NOs with the lowest no_share.
  • To optimize for TVL, prioritize NOs with the highest staked or delegated RPL

Additionally, we recommend adopting certain components from RPIP-59 Deposit Mechanics to ensure smaller NOs are not blocked behind larger ones and to give existing NOs priority for migration.

RPL Inflation

RPL inflation will be gradually reduced to 1.5% over approximately six months. Over time, as the pDAO accumulates sufficient protocol-owned RPL, we expect to see inflation reduced to zero. This strategy ensures long-term sustainability and value retention for RPL holders, contributing to the overall health and growth of the Rocket Pool ecosystem

Conclusion

Our proposal aims to create a more robust, decentralized, and efficient Rocket Pool ecosystem. By addressing the fundamental issues of speculative risks, RPL rewards, collateral requirements, and system brittleness, we provide a comprehensive solution that fosters stability and growth. Our approach ensures that NOs can operate with confidence and predictability, while maintaining the protocol’s security and decentralization.

We respect the authors of the opposing proposal and acknowledge the innovations they have introduced in the rework. These contributions are valuable and have the potential to significantly benefit the Rocket Pool community. We hope that, if our proposal passes, we can work together constructively with the rework team. Their expertise and continued input would be invaluable to the protocol, and we believe that collaboration will lead to the best outcomes for Rocket Pool.

Our goal is to enhance Rocket Pool for the entire community, ensuring a secure, decentralized, and thriving protocol. By combining the strengths of both proposals and working together, we can achieve the best possible outcomes for Rocket Pool’s future.

We look forward to the community’s feedback, and will be in Discord if you have any questions.

Disclaimers

Disclaimer: Rocket Pool is a 1kx portfolio investment.

Disclaimer: This article is for general information purposes only and should not be construed as or relied upon in any manner as investment, financial, legal, regulatory, tax, accounting, or similar advice. Under no circumstances should any material at the site be used or be construed as an offer soliciting the purchase or sale of any security, future, or other financial product or instrument. Views expressed in posts are those of the individual 1kx personnel quoted therein and are not the views of 1kx and are subject to change. The posts are not directed to any investors or potential investors, and do not constitute an offer to sell or a solicitation of an offer to buy any securities, and may not be used or relied upon in evaluating the merits of any investment. All information contained herein should be independently verified and confirmed. 1kx does not accept any liability for any loss or damage whatsoever caused in reliance upon such information. Certain information has been obtained from third-party sources. While taken from sources believed to be reliable, 1kx has not independently verified such information and makes no representations about the enduring accuracy or completeness of any information provided or its appropriateness for a given situation. 1kx may hold positions in certain projects or assets discussed in this article.

4 Likes

Why We Oppose the Rework

The rework contains many innovations, such as Megapools and Bond Curves, which will help scale rETH. However it also has many downsides that could negatively impact the protocol.

It removes protection against centralisation without providing any alternative

The RPL collateral requirement protects against the centralization of the protocol. Without this requirement, centralized entities could become a dominant force in the validator set. The rework proposal dangerously removes critical protections against centralization, with no viable replacements offered. This decision paves the way for centralized entities to dominate the protocol, undermining its foundational principles and exposing it to significant risks.

UARS will result in underpaying home stakers and overpaying centralized entities.

The no_share parameter is designed to find the sweet spot where the protocol is paying enough to attract NOs without overpaying them. The problem is that this “sweet spot” naturally favors centralized entities. Thanks to economies of scale, a centralized entity has a lower break-even point than a home staker, allowing them to accept a lower share of commissions.

UARS will likely land in a spot that is profitable for large entities but below the break-even point for home stakers. If no_share increases to the point where it is attractive to home stakers, it will necessarily be overpaying centralized entities, giving them a further advantage over home stakers.

Conversely, if no_share decreases, home stakers will become unprofitable first, leading to them exiting the protocol, thereby increasing centralization.

Home stakers will be “last in, first out” in terms of profitability, which is the exact opposite of the desired outcome. The rework proposal is least attractive to those it should be seeking to attract the most. As NodeSet put it in their tokenomics review, this raises the “risk of extinction for small operators”.

Our proposal gives RPL holders and pDAO tools to combat these economies of scale, giving home stakers a more level playing field.

Based on the premise that existing NOs will provide sufficient supply

Many in the community believe that existing NOs will provide sufficient supply to grow rETH TVL, and therefore the lack of competitiveness with Lido (based on the UARS settings in the RPIP) is more of a feature than a bug.

This is a gamble. If these NOs are unable to fully satisfy this demand, for example, because they would need to upgrade their hardware and are not able or willing to purchase additional hardware, the protocol will be left in a state where no_share is non-competitive with Lido until the parameter is adjusted.

This will restrict TVL growth as it will take time to reach competitive levels and attract external NOs if the premise proves incorrect. We expect many NOs to simply migrate away from Rocket Pool instead of waiting for UARS to become competitive.

Does not solve the RPL exposure problem

One of the core goals of the rework is to remove the friction of NOs requiring and managing RPL exposure, but it fails to achieve this in any meaningful way. In order to earn maximum rewards, a NO will need to stake RPL.

This leads to the same outcome as the status quo - a NO who wishes to maximize rewards will have RPL exposure and will need to monitor their collateralization ratio to ensure they are being capital efficient. Furthermore, they will need to monitor changing UARS values to ensure the prevailing no_share is above their break-even point. This is worse than the status quo, where the NO can at least rely on consistent commission rates.

It is a bad deal for ETH-only NOs

Based on the initial no_share setting of 3.5% stated in the RPIPs, Rocket Pool will be non-competitive against Lido CSM on launch day (given current timelines, assuming Lido CSM launches around the same time as the rework goes live seems appropriate).

Over time the no_share setting would become more competitive but on day one the choice given to existing NOs will be:

  • Do nothing, earn 14% commission
  • Migrate to Megapools, earn 3.5% commission
  • Migrate to Lido CSM, earn 7% commission

It is worth noting that Lido CSM will also implement Bond Curves - those commission rates both factor in reduced ETH bonds.

Given these numbers, who do the proposal authors expect will migrate on launch day? Will NOs choose to migrate to Lido for predictable rewards, or move to megapools and hope that UARS gives them a no_share above their break-even point?

There are some philosophically-aligned NOs who will validate at any price but relying on them to maximize TVL growth is an entirely flawed proposition, and taking advantage of their alignment to pay non-competitive rates is not sustainable. If we exclude wealthy financially-irrational NOs who can run at a loss indefinitely, all NOs must be able to at least break even otherwise they will eventually need to shut down their operations.

It is a bad deal for RPL holders

Historically the incentives of the Rocket Pool community - rETH holders, NOs, and RPL holders - have been mostly aligned. The rework fundamentally changes this in ways that might have unforeseen consequences. The rework contains a number of mechanisms to benefit ETH+RPL NOs. While they are the lifeblood of the protocol they are not the only group that pDAO serves, as per the pDAO Charter:

The pDAO SHALL serve the Rocket Pool community at large; this comprises rETH holders, Node Operators, and RPL holders

Under the rework proposal RPL holders may receive no benefit from UARS. The rework proposal includes surplus_share which might be used to buy+burn/buy+lp/other to the benefit of RPL holders. However, the current WIP doc suggests the rework authors are considering setting this to zero and giving the value to voter_share (i.e. ETH+RPL NOs) instead.

This presents a conflict of interest: in order for surplus_share to be raised from zero, pDAO (i.e. those who benefit from voter_share) would need to vote to either reduce their rewards, reduce no_share, or increase the overall commission. It would be advantageous for someone who wishes to accumulate more RPL to refuse to vote to increase surplus_share.

We believe that this issue has not been given sufficient consideration.

Both proposals contain a benefit for RPL - inflation will initially be reduced to 1.5% in both cases.

The rework proposal removes the only other value driver for RPL - its utility as collateral.

The 1kx proposal not only retains this value driver, it also allows all RPL holders to participate in the protocol, and also ensures that all RPL holders benefit equally from the mechanisms in our delegation system.

3 Likes

Frequently Asked Questions

Why do you want to keep the collateral requirement?

There are a few reasons for this. The first reason is described in the Rocket Pool FAQ:

The insurance promise acts as collateral, where if the node operator is penalised heavily or slashed and finishes staking with less than the 24 (or 16) ETH provided by rETH stakers, their collateral is sold for ETH via auction to help compensate the protocol for the missing ETH.

The bond curve adjustments make this less important for slashing/abandonment protection, but it remains crucial to protect against MEV theft and poor performance. The collateral provides additional protection against misbehavior (MEV theft or poor performance), minimizing the impact of these behaviors on rETH APY. For example, if a NO steals MEV that should have gone towards rETH’s APY, the protocol can apply a penalty to the NO and recover the value from their collateral, making rETH whole.

The second reason is protection against centralization. Imagine Rocket Pool did not have the RPL requirement over the last few years. How could a centralized liquid staking protocol take advantage of that?

One option would be to empty the Rocket Pool deposit pool using their depositors’ ETH and have centralized NOs run smartnodes. Thanks to the 14% commission they could pay NOs their usual rate and profit at the expense of rETH holders. Or they could split the extra profit so everybody wins - except rETH holders and those who care about decentralization.

The only thing protecting the protocol from this attack is the RPL requirement, which makes it cost-prohibitive to capture such a large portion of the validator set. The rework removes it without providing any adequate replacement, making this attack affordable for anyone with sufficient ETH. RPIP-59 has some mechanisms that would slow it down but these could be easily avoided with sock puppets.

One reason given for dropping the collateral requirement is “Lido does not have one”. This is not a compelling argument - an entity that prefers centralization has no need for anti-centralization protection mechanisms.

The RPL collateral requirement does add some friction, but that friction is the thing that protects the protocol from takeover. Our goal is to remove the friction that limits TVL growth without giving up the protections the RPL requirement affords the protocol.

If the collateral requirement remains, won’t we just see the same problems?

No. Firstly, Valdorff’s rework rationale is correct: one of the problems with the current system is that it requires the same entity to provide ETH, provide RPL, and have the technical skills to be a NO. This friction is one of the things that has stopped Rocket Pool from achieving its full potential

One way to remove this friction is to remove the collateral requirement entirely. This is not viable as it also removes the protections provided by that requirement, exposing the protocol to unacceptable risk.

Another way is to allow - at the protocol level - the separation of these groups. Splitter contracts and whale marriages are good steps in this direction, but they do not go far enough. Delegated staking removes all of the friction of the collateral requirement without giving up its benefits.

This gives us the flexibility we need to unlock protocol growth without taking on additional risks.

NOs can choose the exact level of RPL exposure they prefer - they can supply between 0% and 100% of the required collateral depending on their desired level of RPL exposure. This allows true ETH-only NOs, ETH+RPL NOs, and everything in between.

Will RPL collateral be used to replace ETH bonds?

No. Protocol safety is paramount. The ETH bonds will always be sufficient to ensure protocol safety. RPL collateral would be used to penalize MEV theft and potentially poor performance.

Is this just for whales?

Quite the opposite. Delegation allows RPL holders of any size to participate in the protocol. The current whale marriages system only benefits large RPL holders. A large ETH holder will not spend time coordinating with hundreds of RPL holders with 10 RPL each; they will wait for a single whale with the required amount of RPL.

Similarly, the rework only benefits RPL holders who are also NOs. RPL holders without the ETH or technical skills to run a node have no way to benefit from voter_share. Delegation fixes this by allowing any RPL holder to participate in the protocol, democratizing whale marriages and leveling the playing field for smaller RPL holders.

Will delegated staking lead to centralization?

Short answer: we have tried our best to prevent it but it is up to you, the RPL holders and pDAO members.

Longer answer: In all staking systems (delegated or otherwise), large operators have the advantage of economies of scale. Larger entities pay less for hardware, bandwidth, and electricity than home stakers. Larger entities can afford to hire dedicated personnel to manage nodes, leading to better uptime and higher rewards.

Unless a delegated system is specifically designed to counteract these economies of scale it will lead to the same undesirable outcome.

The rework provides no protection against centralization (and in fact UARS encourages it, as described elsewhere). While we acknowledge that our protections do not guarantee success, having some measures in place is far better than having none at all. Our design includes two key components to help protect against centralization:

  • Direct democracy from RPL holders
  • pDAO delegation

The first allows RPL holders to have a direct influence on the types of NOs that make up the validator set. An RPL holder who delegates to a protocol-aligned NO is effectively casting a vote for that NO. Their delegation will allow that NO to scale up their validator count faster and more cheaply than NOs who are not aligned with the protocol.

We expect delegates to factor in their individual financial returns when making delegation decisions but we also expect them to consider the charter values and overall health of the protocol.

The second mechanism, pDAO delegation, gives pDAO a mechanism to balance the economies of scale enjoyed by larger operators. pDAO can give home stakers a boost over the centralized entities, allowing protocol-aligned NOs to compete on an equal footing no matter how small they are.

For example, let us say the prevailing commission rate is x%. Centralized entities will be able to offer delegates a better commission thanks to economies of scale. pDAO can counterbalance this by delegating to protocol-aligned NOs at a commission rate of x+y%, allowing the NO to achieve the same profitability as the large centralized operator.

This allows pDAO to directly counter the economies of scale problem that plagues all staking systems, in a way that does not negatively impact rETH APY.

We have designed our delegation system to try to avoid these risks as much as possible, but the choice ultimately comes down to RPL delegators and pDAO. If any community can get this right, it is Rocket Pool’s.

Will 1kx be charging a fee for the delegation system?

No. This will be built in at the protocol level and there will be no fees for either NOs or delegators.

Any tools we build (e.g. a delegation dashboard) will be released as open source.

Any services required for efficient operation of the delegation system (e.g. hosting an instance of the delegation dashboard) will be provided as public goods to benefit the protocol.

These tools and services will rely on publicly available data. We would hope to see the creation of alternative dashboards, presenting varied validator performance/centralization metrics to help delegates make informed decisions.

So much work has been done on the rework already, why not just go ahead?

While we support much of the rationale for the rework, we believe that the rework proposal is ultimately dangerous to Rocket Pool’s viability as a decentralized staking platform. The proposal is flawed: not only does it fail to address the problems we see today, it exposes the protocol to significant risk by removing the collateral requirement.

We appreciate that the rework team has put significant effort into their proposal, and that their proposal is in a more mature state than our own. However, neither of these provide sufficient justification to move forward with a flawed proposal.

We must avoid the sunk cost fallacy - just because time has been invested in the rework proposal it does not mean it will necessarily achieve its goals.

It does not matter which proposal was started first - the important question is “which proposal leads to better outcomes for the Rocket Pool ecosystem”.

Won’t 1kx earn more rewards under the rework? Why are you not in favor?

If the question is “do you want free ETH” then the answer is “yes please, send it to 1kx.eth”. But it is not free ETH - it is value that is extracted from smaller NOs and given to larger NOs. So the question is actually “do you want to extract value from smaller NOs to boost your own rewards”, and our answer to that is no. It is value extractive and it is not sustainable.

Our success is measured by the health and growth of Rocket Pool. Our vision is for rETH to become the market-leading LST. A short-term boost in ETH rewards is not worth risking our long-term vision for the protocol.

We believe that our proposal will resurrect the “RPL value as 10% of borrowed ETH” hypothesis and accelerate the protocol towards its 22% self-limit. The value gained from sustainably fixing Rocket Pool’s tokenomics and unlocking this growth potential will far outweigh the benefits of extracting value from small NOs.

3 Likes

First of all thanks for caring about RP and putting your efforts into improving it.

Can you please elaborate on how this proposed tokenomics is signnificantly better than what we have now (ability do delegate RPL + NodeSet Constellation soon)? If we are expecting the protocol to start growing soon why we need changes? If we don’t expect a growth, what are the key elements of the proposal that unlock that growth? Is that bonding curves and diminishing inflation? Or maybe some nuances of proposed delegation model?

Hi @mike_1kx ,

Thanks for sharing a final summary/report. I plan to respond more thoroughly later, but I wanted to quickly address one of the largest implementation flaws I pointed out to you with our initial discussion, since it doesn’t look like it has been hashed out or addressed?

What’s to stop a Node Operator from setting their own commission to 14%, borrowing massive amounts of RPL, spinning up as many validators as they want, and then unstaking/selling their RPL and continuing to run ETH-Only at 14%? It you try to create specific rules to only allow undercollateralization through delegation then this can also be trivially worked around:

  • Borrow RPL en masse/delegate to yourself
  • Create a large amount of validators
  • Remove/unstake delegated RPL
  • Continue to run ETH only at 14% commission
  • Sell their RPL back/close their position

Thanks for the time and effort put into this alternative proposal. I have long shared the centralization concerns you’ve laid out with the current rework proposal, and wholeheartedly support this alternative. I hope the community gives it the consideration it deserves.

I think this is actually a good compromise proposal, between those like myself that think we should just do start with LEB4 and dynamic commissions (primarily so we can attract rETH demand when necessary), and those that want to do direct value capture to all RPL tokens. I love that it only directs value to RPL being used in the protocol in one way or another.

For those that love the idea of the protocol buying RPL, that’s still in here, it just provides it to the operators and delegators. For those that love ETH-only validators, that’s sort of in there. To the smol NO, they can join and provide up to n validators with no RPL, but a delegator (participant or pDAO) provides it. Above that, they become more aware of the RPL requirement, and need to provide RPL or get more delegation for more validators.

I also think this is a good amount of scope reduction, which is critically important. Some of the delegation work, like the dashboard, can be done asynchronously from the core team. Scope reduction is also a win considering we should be developing alongside Ethereum while implementing tokenomics changes. I’ve said elsewhere we should implement MAX-EB shortly after it’s available, and not be adding validators while other projects are consolidating.

One question I have is the max_collateral_ratio you mentioned. RPIP-30 provides no max currently, where are you thinking that max ratio will be, and what do you propose for a withdrawal limit? Of course, if this passes, RPIP-30 becomes mostly obsolete after six months with RPL inflation to NOs going to zero, but we currently have no defined max_collateral_ratio.

Currently a NO can withdraw down to 60% of bonded ETH. I’m assuming you propose keeping some withdrawal limit (addressing Samus’s concern above), curious if you have any more color here. Also, with the removal of inflation to NOs, it would seem like lowering the withdrawal limit somewhat could be beneficial to potentially provide more RPL delegation (assuming there are attractive delegate_shares on offer). I for one would be interested in delegating some RPL, if I got a similar benefit to staking it on my own node.

I see various interested parties in the tokenomics rework (excluding people outside our current NO set)

  • Those that want to increase Rocket Pool share of stake, seeming to me to believe that in and of itself is good for Ethereum, no matter how it’s accomplished
  • Those that want to get off the RPL ratio pain train (ETH-only preference), some of these have already left the operator set
  • Those that want RPL numba to go up (also desire Rocket Pool to grow, considering that serves the same goal)
  • Those that believe part of what makes Rocket Pool special is the strong focus on decentralization and health of Ethereum. Leaning away from centralization risks where possible, rather than leaning in or minimizing the concern. I put myself in this camp.

No offense intended, and apologies to anyone I didn’t cover, or thinks I misrepresented, it’s just my opinion.

In my view, enabling unlimited ETH-only operators is throwing in the towel, and in some respects becoming closer to an alt-Lido. Meanwhile Lido itself will be making moves towards decentralization. Speaking personally, if we go this route, Rocket Pool will lose part of what makes it special, and will cause me to take a close look at all staking service opportunities, because Rocket Pool will be becoming closer to everything else in my eyes. Maybe I’m an n=1, but if not, that has implications for assumptions being made on what level of rewards sharing operators will endure.

I’m curious, do you have anything to share, either quantitative or qualitative, to speak to the ‘RPL ratio pain train’ and ‘RPL numba go up’ groups? What I take from the proposal is that existing operators are still exposed to RPL to the same extent they are today. They’ll be most interested with a TLDR on what might happen to the ratio for them.

One option for RPL pain train group is to exit, sell their RPL, and get delegated / protocol-owned RPL to spin up the first n validators, but if they might expect ratio recovery, they may stay put. I know it’s purely speculation, but how do you think about the ratio under your proposal? Bonus if you could compare with how you see the hypothetical floor today.

There is still an RPL buy component here, so it seems at some point a floor is found and maintained.

Thanks again for your efforts. I appreciate the work you’ve put into it.

Chris Rock

I’ll lead off by saying that this proposal is far from mature. I suspect it’s about equivalent to where the rpl.rehab proposal was in March or April. It will take a whole lot of elbow grease to get it to something well specified that’s ready for voting. If it remains mostly pushed by a single entity, it’s likely that can go a lot faster - repeatedly discussing and obtaining rough consensus across community contributors has certainly been a slow process. I bring this up to both note that there would be a delay and to explain that I will only respond at a quite high level, as the details should be very mutable.

I’ll discuss 3 issues:

  • The 1kx proposal is way more centralizing. This is the main focus because it can’t be fixed without simply being an unrelated proposal.
  • That 1kx uses bad arguments
  • The 1kx proposal creates perverse incentives

1kx proposal is more centralizing

Simply: delegation systems are centralizing. 1kx address this under “Will delegated staking lead to centralization?” above. It appears that they then just cross their fingers and hope. This is the core of their whole design.

  • 1kx assert that RPL holder delegation will favor “protocol-aligned NOs”
    • This is not what has happened in real world delegation systems
    • ATOM is perhaps the strongest example. The cosmos ecosystem has a strong and ongoing history of airdrop to ATOM delegators, which excludes those that delegate stake to top delegates. This means that you are leaving money on the table by delegating to top delegates (for me, airdrops have been quite a lot more money than the staking itself). Nonetheless, their top 10 delegates hold: 9.1%, 6.6%, 4.4%, 3.9%, 3.5%, 3.3%, 3.3%, 3.2%, 2.4%, 2.3% = 42.08%. Again, this is despite a strong financial incentive to delegate further down the list and no work involved to do so.
    • On Cardano, I can’t find recent info. As of 1/2022, 13% of stake was on binance and they were struggling to fight back. This is a pretty ethos-driven project, but competing with the easiest front end that folks were already familiar with was a huge issue.
    • SSV doesn’t make it easy to see things, which I can only say is smart of them cuz it reflects awfully on them. Scroll through SSV Network Explorer and you’ll see that any one entity is limited to 500 validators. And so you have entities brazenly making different “operators”. There are over 50 “operators” for P2P at the maximum 500, and many more under that. Again - this is a protocol expressly created for the purpose of promoting decentralization and “Ethereum’s sustainability” and it has fallen prey to immense centralization due to delegation. They are even being used by other protocols to create a veneer of decentralization (Stader has some permissioned NOs that run clusters where a single entity runs all nodes in the cluster).
    • In the Cosmos ecosystem, we saw a case where allnodes ran other popular validators white labeled. They did it for a fee, and didn’t have the right to the staking revenue, etc, but in terms of literal power, they could control quite a lot. See https://www.reddit.com/r/cosmosnetwork/comments/10nykld/all_nodes_saga_whats_the_situation_how_white_list/ for the story. This wasn’t even an intended sock puppet attack per se.
  • 1kx assert that pDAO delegation will favor “protocol-aligned NOs”
    • This is not what has happened in real world delegation systems
    • Solana has a foundation they use to help steer stake. It’s pretty hard to be profitable without the foundation’s delegation (this is obviously devastating – it’s essentially a permissioned system)
      • It does help! Dashboard | Solana Beach shows the top 10 delegates at 3.3%, 3.1%, 2.5%, 2.4%, 2.2%, 2.1%, 1.6%, 1.6%, 1.5%, 1.5% = 21.7%. That said, the tradeoff for this was using an essentially centralized kingmaking committee.
  • Is RP particularly awesome to buck the trend of every other delegation system?
    • Vote power distribution: https://xrchz.net/rocketdelegate.txt shows that for our vote power delegation currently has top 10 delegates at 8.9%, 7.6%, 5.7%, 4.4%, 4.0%, 3.9%, 3.8%, 3.5%, 2.5%, 2.4% = 46.7%
    • RPL holder distribution: 7.5%, 5%, 4.8%, 2.5%, 1.9%, 1.7%, 1.7%, 1.6%, 1.6%, 1.6% = 29.9%. Note that this heavily underestimates concentration as “marriages” will make things look like they’re spread out because the proximate holder changes, but the ultimate owner does not.
    • About a quarter of all NOs use allnodes, and about 10% of all RP validators run on allnodes.
    • I think we’re pretty good. I think we care. I don’t think it’s enough to buck the trend. I certainly don’t think it’s enough to expect we buck the trend and continue doing so indefinitely.
## Bad arguments
  • 1kx assert that the rpl.rehab proposal is a bad deal for NOs and a bad deal for RPL holders. At a given size and commission, 100% of revenue flows to those two groups (under both the 1kx and rpl.rehab proposals). It’s not possible for either proposal to be better or worse for both of those parties, since they sum to the same number.
  • 1kx assert that “Protocol-aligned NOs can be made more profitable than centralized entities”. Any centralized entitity can sock puppet to look like any other address. If sock puppeting is “made more profitable”, then centralized entities will do it. There is no way to tilt the scales this way unless you solve the sybil problem. This might be possible with KYC. I am unaware of an ethos-acceptable permissionless way to solve this problem and 1kx has not tried to provide any. In other words, they are simply axiomatically supposing that the hard part will be magically solved.
  • “Both proposals contain a benefit for RPL - inflation will initially be reduced to 1.5% in both cases. The rework proposal removes the only other value driver for RPL - its utility as collateral.”
    • This fails to acknowledge the value capture component of the rpl.rehab rework. It’s not disagreeing with it, which would be fine. It’s simply pretending that it’s not there. The rpl.rehab proposal suggests 3 possible forms of value capture: max voter_share, buy+burn, and buy+lp.
## Perverse incentives
  • I can borrow a bunch of RPL on aave, delegate it to my own node at max no_commission, spin up validators, undelegate it, and repay aave. Zero RPL is staked (thus no value is captured). All the validators are running and gaining max no_commission minus recollateralization_share.
  • When a node operator becomes undercollateralized, some of their rewards are taken away by recollateralization_share. Essentially this brings back a cliff, except it’s now based on a popularity contest rather than personal funds.
    • From a game theory perspective, any RPL holder can offer to top them off with a delegation in exchange for 90% of the recollateralization_share. It’s unclear to me why a market for such things (which are punishing to NOs) wouldn’t arise.
    • The flip side is also true! Imagine I’ve delegated 110 RPL to you and that gets you 110% of your minimum. I can threaten to take away 11 RPL (I can just move it to another node), unless you pay me more. You would be rational to pay me off until the price reaches recollateralization_share.
  • When a Node Operator sets no_commission below the maximum allowed, some of that goes to RPL delegators and some goes to rETH. This means that if anyone can instead make an agreement in an outside market, they can cut out rETH and both come out ahead. This means we will directly pay more to folks that are able to make agreements outside the protocol. Unsurprisingly, this favors centralization.
  • 1kx assert that “Protocol-aligned NOs can be made more profitable than centralized entities”. Since we have no permissionless way to tell different entities apart, this becomes a game of who can look most protocol aligned. Large entities have higher incentives to learn how to maximize this metric than a home staker with a moderate amount of ETH – we’d be directly incentivizing large entities to deceive us.

Anyhow. I won’t go looking for more. I think the structure has a lot of complexity. This makes for a lot of surface area, which makes for a lot of gaming potential. I don’t know if it’s possible to close every gap in the design, and I don’t trust strongly in our ability to think of them ahead of time or to keep up with noticing them.

5 Likes

Hey NeverAnIsland, thanks for response. The key elements for unlocking TVL growth are bond curves and delegation. Bond curves allow more protocol ETH to be safely deployed by a NO (when combined with megapools). Delegation allows the NO to deploy that ETH without also shouldering sole responsibility for the full amount of RPL collateral - instead, that demand can be met by many small RPL holders.

The issue with the current “delegate RPL” system is that all RPL must come from a single party (barring complex and trustful setups). Whale marriages would be significantly more powerful if smaller RPL holders could participate. RocketLend and Constellation are two methods of achieving that (and there is space for both to exist on top of our proposal), but solving the issue at the protocol level is most effective. Both of these approaches would likely lead to protocol growth, but we unlock maximal benefits by implementing it at the protocol level.

Worth noting that NodeSet have raised their concerns about the rework proposal and believe it may hinder Constellation’s positive effects on RP. Full disclosure, 1kx has invested in NodeSet.

Hi Val, thanks for taking the time to review and respond.

I’ll lead off by saying that this proposal is far from mature. I suspect it’s about equivalent to where the rpl.rehab proposal was in March or April.

We acknowledged that our proposal is not as far along, and explained why this should not be a deciding factor. We should do what is right for RP, not pick the option that has been on the table for the longest.

It appears that they then just cross their fingers and hope. This is the core of their whole design.

We went into some detail explaining how we aim to prevent centralisation. If you want to dismiss this as “crossing our fingers and hoping”, that is your prerogative. Anyone can read our proposal for themselves and decide if this is a valid assessment.

It is worth remembering that the rework proposal contains nothing that even attempts to prevent centralisation. Let us be really clear here: The worst-case scenario under delegation (100% of delegation goes to centralised entities, allowing them to launch as many validators as they can afford), is the default state of the rework proposal.

The rework increases centralisation risk in two separate ways:

  • Removing the collateral requirement opens the floodgates for centralised entities to take as much of the validator set as they can afford.
  • The design of UARS ensures that these centralised validators will profit more than home stakers

1kx assert that pDAO delegation will favor “protocol-aligned NOs” This is not what has happened in real world delegation systems

Firstly, we already acknowledged that delegated staking systems tend towards centralisation (just like every other staking system, delegated or otherwise) because economies of scale exist, and we need to specifically consider how to avoid this.

Secondly, comparing the Solana Foundation (a centralised non-profit foundation) to pDAO (a DAO) does not seem that useful in terms of their respective views on decentralisation, number of participants, diversity of opinion, and so on.

Finally, under our proposal NOs are profitable without pDAO delegation. pDAO is “delegate of last resort”, not the only option to be profitable. Suggesting that pDAO will be required to act as kingmaker in order for NOs to be profitable is misleading.

1kx assert that the rpl.rehab proposal is a bad deal for NOs and a bad deal for RPL holders. At a given size and commission, 100% of revenue flows to those two groups (under both the 1kx and rpl.rehab proposals). It’s not possible for either proposal to be better or worse for both of those parties, since they sum to the same number.

The inputs sum to the same amount. The outputs - from the perspective of an individual NO and the RPL holders - do not, because of the rent-seeking nature of UARS.

Your phrasing here is misleading in two ways. Firstly, you are leaving out a critical distinction between “those two groups”. Consider an ETH-only NO under each proposal.

Under our proposal, those rewards go to the NO running the validators, and the RPL holders who delegated to that NO (which might include pDAO), and maybe pDAO if the node is undercollateralised (used for RPL buys which benefit all RPL holders equally).

Under the rework proposal, those rewards to go the NO running the validators, to ETH+RPL NOs who have sufficient RPL staked, and maybe to providing value to non-NO RPL holders (assuming surplus_share is >0%, and assuming the “replace surplus_share with increased voter_share” option does not pass).

Pretending these are the same two groups is grossly misrepresenting the situation, and takes advantage of the fact that this is a nuanced issue which is easy to misunderstand.

Secondly, focussing on NO rewards, “At a given size and commission” is a very indirect way of saying “if a NO stakes the max amount of RPL”. Saying it bluntly - “NOs only receive max voter_share if they have max RPL collateral” - acknowledges that the rework does not solve the “running minipools is primarily speculative” issue in any meaningful way.

And that is why our proposal is a better deal for both parties: We do not need to siphon off some of the value to pay rent-seekers. Value goes to those participating in the system (the NO and the RPL delegates).

I am unaware of an ethos-acceptable permissionless way to solve this problem and 1kx has not tried to provide any.

There are two questions here: the first is “should we try to protect the protocol against centralisation or just give up and let it happen”. The second question is “how best can we protect the protocol against centralisation”.

We have deliberately not proscribed any single approach for this - it is up to pDAO and it will evolve over time. We need not rely on a single solution, and can innovate here without requiring further protocol changes. We would be happy to contribute to ideation sessions, and would also like to hear suggestions from the community. Personally I would welcome a discussion with you on how to approach this, but based on your response it seems you believe nothing will work and there is no point trying, which is unlikely to lead to a productive outcome.

This fails to acknowledge the value capture component of the rpl.rehab rework. It’s not disagreeing with it, which would be fine. It’s simply pretending that it’s not there.

If you search the posts for “UARS” you will find our references to it, an explanation of why we disagree with it, and some diagrams demonstrating why it is economically flawed and will lead to overpaying larger NOs and underpaying home stakers. We have acknowledged it, and then explained why we do not believe it is adequate replacement.

Furthermore, some of the proposal authors believe surplus_share should be set to 0% at launch. When it comes time to vote on what to do with surplus_share, one of the options is “give it all to voter_share”. There is a non-zero chance that your proposal would end up with surplus_share either left at 0%, or redirected to voter_share. This highlights the perverse incentives present in the rework proposal - RPL holders would be relying on pDAO (i.e. the beneficiaries of voter_share) to vote to reduce their own rewards. The only people who can vote to increase surplus_share are those who would lose out financially by doing so.

I can borrow a bunch of RPL on aave, delegate it to my own node at max no_commission, spin up validators, undelegate it, and repay aave. Zero RPL is staked (thus no value is captured). All the validators are running and gaining max no_commission minus recollateralization_share.

Please see my response to samus below.

When a node operator becomes undercollateralized, some of their rewards are taken away by recollateralization_share. Essentially this brings back a cliff, except it’s now based on a popularity contest rather than personal funds.

It is based on market forces, and/or personal funds depending on preference. I kind of see where you are coming from by calling “market forces” a “popularity contest”, though I am sure we would agree that financial markets have a little bit more nuance to them than popularity contests.

From a game theory perspective, any RPL holder can offer to top them off with a delegation in exchange for 90% of the recollateralization_share. It’s unclear to me why a market for such things (which are punishing to NOs) wouldn’t arise.

Please play out the game theory. You offer 90% of the recollateralization_share, what happens next? Either the NO accepts it, or someone else offers 89% and the NO goes with them instead. But wait! Someone else offers 88%, and someone else offers 87%… this continues until we reach the fair market rate for delegation, i.e. the delegate_share. The market is built into the delegation system.

The flip side is also true! Imagine I’ve delegated 110 RPL to you and that gets you 110% of your minimum. I can threaten to take away 11 RPL (I can just move it to another node),

Again, this is simply market forces at work. You can take away your 11 RPL, then I can either attract another delegate to replace you, or wait for recollateralization, or provide the 1 RPL myself. Given those three options I could calculate the ROI of each and chose the optimal one for me.

This is all just supply/demand economics. We use market forces to make the system more efficient.

When a Node Operator sets no_commission below the maximum allowed, some of that goes to RPL delegators and some goes to rETH. This means that if anyone can instead make an agreement in an outside market,

What you are describing is the “whale marriages” system, where two parties join up to provide the requisite amount RPL and ETH. Your argument here could be rephrased as “people who do not need the delegation system will not use the delegation system”, and yes, that is correct. In a permissionless protocol we cannot prevent this, nor should we want to. We are not going to force people to use delegation just for the sake of it.

The point of delegation is to remove the RPL requirement from the NO and allow others to provide it on their behalf. If the NO does not need anyone to provide RPL (because they have their own, or a whale marriage, or an Aave loan, etc.) then of course they do not need to use delegation. In terms of protocol revenue your scenario is identical to someone who provided their own RPL collateral. The max_commission_rate param ensures these NOs are providing the same baseline rETH APY as every other NO.

Hi @samus, thanks again for your feedback and initial review.

What is missing from the attack vector description is that recollateralization_share is used to purchase RPL and stake if on behalf of pDAO. With that in mind, let us run through this scenario from the perspective of a potential NO with huge ETH resources:

  • The NO needs x RPL to deploy y validators. They borrow x RPL from Aave, stake it on their node, and launch y validators.
  • The NO can not unstake their RPL for n epochs. They are exposed to price/liquidation risk until they can unstake.
  • At the earliest opportunity they unstake the RPL (for sake of argument, assume to zero), and repay the loan (plus interest).
  • They are now undercollateralized.
  • The validators continue to run, providing revenue for the protocol.
  • recollateralization_share is used to purchase RPL from the market (increased buy pressure) and delegate it to the node (reduced market supply) on behalf of pDAO (increased protocol-owned yield).
  • This increased buy pressure, increased protocol-owned yield, and reduced market supply, continue until the node is collateralised to the minimal level.
  • Once the node is recollateralised, purchases stop. pDAO continues to earn yield on the RPL that was purchased during recollateralization.

So, what is the outcome of this “attack”?

  • rETH TVL is increased because the NO was not prevented from scaling up
  • Additional buy pressure created due to recollateralization_share
  • RPL is taken off of the market, and owned by pDAO
  • pDAO RPL yield increases

The NO could achieve a more optimal outcome by simply attracting delegation, and offering (delegation_rate+extra_reth_share)>recollateralization_share. There is no need to go through the Aave rigamarole, it simply costs more in gas and lending costs.

Please also keep in mind that this is a design decision: we could prevent anyone from unstaking below x RPL, but at the cost of making staking less attractive due to longer lockups.

1 Like

Hey @rocknet, thanks for the detailed response and questions.

We elected to leave some of these values open to discussion. If there is some community support for the overall idea we can provide some data to help reach a data-driven decision together.

One approach would be to simply let NOs withdraw down to 0%, and let delegation/recollateralisation kick in. We could treat the NO’s RPL slightly differently (i.e. not allow them to withdraw the last RPL), but this can be defeated with sock puppets (delegating to yourself from another account).

For NOs with RPL below the max amount the most profitable option would be to stake on your own node and keep as many rewards as possible. If you have idle capital above the max amount you could indeed delegate this to other NOs and earn additional yield.

This is how we view it too. Rocket Pool is an open source protocol. There is no technical moat that can not be copied by the competition (and vice versa). Over the long term our primary differentiator is the community of Ethereum-aligned NOs. If we lose that, RP is just another liquid staking protocol.

Pain train: Under our proposal you could sell your RPL and continue running a node. You would give up a share of your rewards to the people who provide the RPL on your behalf. This is an important distinction compared to the rework proposal. Under the rework you would be giving up a share of your rewards to ETH+RPL NOs, i.e. rent-seeking enforced by UARS. Under our proposal you would be entering into a mutually beneficial relationship with RPL holders - you get more rewards if they delegate to you, and they get a share of your increased rewards in exchange.

Numba go up: That 1kx holds RPL is a matter of public record, so it goes without saying that we would benefit from an improved RPL price.

Apologies, I can not speculate on this. This ultimately depends on how each individual NO perceives the current and future value of RPL under whichever proposal passes.

I’ll directly quote from your own answer:

First: we have no way of telling home stakers apart from large entities if the large entities don’t want us to tell them apart. Addresses are free and the system is permissionless. You have not provided any thoughts on how to tell them apart. This means that even best case, the most we can do is reward home stakers and large entities the same (which is what the rpl.rehab proposal does). Doing better than that requires solving a giant never-before-solved problem in web3. This issue applies to both the “direct democracy” and “pDAO delegation” paragraphs below.

Your approach on the “direct democracy” is explicitly expecting folks to “consider the charter values and overall health of the protocol” and delegate based on that. Remember that we can only tell centralized entities apart if they wish us to tell them apart. Further, I have shown (a) empirical evidence that this hasn’t occurred for other protocols, (b) that it hasn’t occurred for RP’s vote power, and (c) that it hasn’t occurred with respect to RP NO’s choosing to run on Allnodes. I think hoping it’ll be different without a structural reason is reasonably described as “crossing our fingers and hoping”.

Your approach on “pDAO delegation” is to have the pDAO pick and choose home stakers and boosting them. Remember that we can only tell centralized entities apart if they wish us to tell them apart. Beyond that, I’ve shown the small amount of evidence available that committees are not effective at selecting an extremely large number of winners. We have seen that they can select a moderate number of winners as a kingmaking group (more than democracy picks), but I don’t believe that’s a worthwhile tradeoff. Barring a particular reason we expect RP to be different, I think this is reasonably described as “crossing our fingers and hoping”.

More answers, but honestly if delegating stake doesn't decentralize there's no point talking about more

This is starting to piss me off. It’s fine to disagree with my opinion (that delegation is actively pro-centralization, and that a level playing field results in a mix of centralized and non-centralized entities). It’s not ok to pretend that opinion doesn’t exist or doesn’t deserve to be acknowledged.

I don’t believe in your assertion that the rework proposal’s default state is 100% benefiting centralized entities. We have explicitly talked about this. It is not the case that all home stakers are a monolith with a single price point and all centralized entities are a monolith with a single price point. Rather they are both spectrums, and it’s very likely that the hobbyist and high ethos groups have lower averages than centralized entities. I believe that delegation, in actively encouraging centralization, will result in more stake going to centralized entities than a level playing field.


You are, right here, refusing to engage on the issue I bring up. My issue is with delegation. You are focusing on staking.

I agree the Solana foundation is not a great comparison. I didn’t find a better one. For what it’s worth, an RP committee would probably be needed for this (centralizing power), so I do think it’s a relevant comparison point.

I don’t think I suggested the kingmaking is required for profit - happy to edit text if it reads that way somewhere. It is required to make some entities (ideally the aligned ones, but we still can’t tell them apart) more profitable than openly-operating centralized entities.


This is wildly wrong? The “given size” is protocol size, aka rETH TVL.

This is a fair perspective, though not one I share. If you consider RPL holders that don’t stake to be negative somehow, then under rpl.rehab you would argue for the voter_share variant rather than buy+lp or buy+burn. I think such holders are value positive – high demand for RPL increases RPL price and makes our inflation-funded expenses stronger.


On the contrary, I believe we will someday figure it out. It’s an active area of research. It’s not something new. I have spent a fair chunk of time ideating possible solutions (not for RP - again this isn’t a unique problem) and not gotten anything great. Today is not the day we figure it out. I don’t support making the protocol rely on a new innovation that allows a paradigm shift to occur.

If it’s simply market forces, then we will never favor protocol-aligned users, by definition. They must keep closest to max_no_commission to get an acceptable result. The popularity contest is necessary to achieve your described goals of delegation being actively decentralizing.

You’re assuming there is excess RPL – ie more people that want to delegate than are needed. In that case, you’re absolutely right. Idealized, the going rate should flip between delegate_share and delgate_share+recollateralization_share depending on what’s scarce.

My argument here is people profit from avoiding the delegation system. You are directly creating an incentive for people to make a secondary out-of-protocol market because this one has a fee, which they can simply avoid. Rocketlend plus execution layer exit requests would allow this to be done without even adding trust assumptions.

Did you mean <? If it’s >, then the aave variant is more profitable.

Essentially, I think you’re saying “it’s not always broken, but it is brittle”. If the RPL delegation market decides they want to charge a lot, then the attack becomes profitable. I guess you could see that as a benefit, as that makes RPL less desirable and they’ll then charge less… but in the meantime less RPL than “minimum” is staked in total, which damages RPL value.

1 Like

I definitely didn’t realize that, and it certainly is important. The non voter-share variants of the rpl.rehab would have pretty big impacts on Nodeset’s planned constellation product.

I did not know this either. Very interesting tidbit of info.

Okay, so it’s bond curves and a frictionless delegation of RPL.

Maybe I missed it but what are the proposed collateral amounts for LEB4 and lesser LEBs?

Also I can’t see how the described system is protected against degradation to the system where all RPL belongs to pDAO (hence rendering the token useless) and the protocol is stagnant in a suboptimal state (<self_limit%). What is the point of owning RPL or investing in RPL when ETH yield from supplying it to NOs is less than simply holding rETH? Imagine another year of RPL selloff after new tokenomics launch: independent RPL holders sell it to cut losses, and mostly pDAO buys (because it has money and an incentive to both support price and supply more RPL), and soon we are in the degraded state I describe.

UPD: can you also please define “centralized takeover” precisely? I’m struggling to understand if this is about a share of validators or a governance takeover or whatever else…

The rework proposal gives them the same rewards. This has a centralising effect because economies of scale exist. When you say “we give them the same rewards”, you are actually saying “we give centralised entities better ROI” - there is an important distinction here.

I have explained why UARS will likely lead to overpaying centralized entities (which you agreed with in DM). I have explained that removing the collateral requirement will open the floodgates to centralized entities taking over the validator set.

Can you outline the mechanisms in the rework which will prevent centralised entities from taking as much of the validator set as their ETH permit? What specific mechanisms does the rework have to prevent this?

Yes, and in DM, you said:

I agree overpaying the big guys is a slightly sad side effect, but I don’t see a way to avoid it.

However, in public you say:

it’s very likely that the hobbyist and high ethos groups have lower averages than centralized entities.

These views seem conflicting. Privately, you acknowledge that UARS will result in overpaying the big guys because they have lower average break-even points, but publicly you suggest that small operators will likely have lower average break-even points.

Please clarify: Will UARS result in overpaying the big guys or not?

It is demonstrably true that large entities have better economies of scale than smaller NOs, and I have explained why:

Larger entities pay less for hardware, bandwidth, and electricity than home stakers. Larger entities can afford to hire dedicated personnel to manage nodes, leading to better uptime and higher rewards.

In DM you acknowledge that economies of scale exist and agree that they allow a large centralized provider to accept a lower rate, but in public you claim that hobbyists will likely have a lower average rate.

It is difficult to have a productive debate with someone who expresses one belief publicly, and expresses a conflicting belief privately. Please be consistent in your arguments. Feel free to post the full chat if you think I am taking your quote out of context.

This is the quote you responded to:

Firstly, we already acknowledged that delegated staking…

We are talking about delegated staking, and how economies of scale give an advantage to large entities. I am directly engaging on the issue you raised.

You claimed that it is not possible for one proposal to be better or worse than another. I explained why that is the case, but you have ignored the core criticism - UARS is rent-seeking, and that makes the outcome worse under the rework proposal.

Rocketlend will most likely have a fee. If it does not, then using Rocketlend instead of the delegation system will achieve exactly the same goals as delegation - remove the RPL requirement from the NO, allow multiple small parties to provide the RPL, unlocking protocol growth. rETH still gets the baseline rewards defined by max_commission_rate.

If Rocketlend does have a fee then your point is moot - people will use whichever mechanism provides them the best ROI. Whether that is Rocketlend or delegation, the protocol wins either way. If people choose delegation over Rocketlend, the protocol wins more because of extra_reth_share.

You are still referring to it as an “attack”, when I have shown that this scenario simply leads to increased TVL and rETH rewards.

You are forgetting the recollateralization component. If the amount of RPL is below the minimum defined by the collateralization ratio, pDAO will purchase RPL from the market providing additional buy pressure until the minimum is reached.

As you noted in your Discord response to Paladin, the recollateralization_share is streamed from the ETH rewards, so it guarantees there will always be buy pressure so long as rewards are flowing. But of course this buy pressure is not guaranteed to outweigh sell pressure.

Excellent, this is why we do disclosures, to ensure everyone has all of the relevant info. @waqwaqattack, would love to hear your thoughts on the proposal too.

We oppose the rework because it exposes the protocol to significant risk of centralized takeover and it fails to solve the “running minipools is primarily speculative” issue, along with the other reasons described here.

As NodeSet noted in their review of the rework, RP is only one of the networks they plan to service. You will note that our delegation proposal is also competitive to NodeSet’s product. There is less need for Constellation if delegated staking is built into the protocol (same with Rocketlend). If the result of our proposal passing is that Constellation is not viable, the NodeSet team will be fine. To quote them directly:

To be clear, NodeSet as a business is in no danger, even if tokenomics were changed tomorrow completely disable Constellation somehow :slight_smile: We have dozens of other opportunities for us to invest development resources, with more appearing all the time.

I agree with the point behind your question, but pDAO will never own 100% of RPL supply - that would require pDAO to be the only entity purchasing RPL, all existing NOs to have sold their entire RPL stack, and all sell-side demand on all CEXs/DEXs to have been exhausted.

But I do agree, there should be a limit to how much RPL pDAO owns. Too little supply on the market causes liquidity issues. If pDAO owns “too much” RPL, pDAO can propose to sell some on the market to increase supply.

This is one of the reasons we oppose UARS: At maturity RPL would be competitive with rETH. They both produce ETH yield so investors would pick the one with the best ROI. At maturity, the LST governance token competes with the LST itself. This does not seem like a desirable outcome or sensible product strategy.

Under our proposal the reason for owning RPL at maturity would be continuing RPL yield. This is a much clearer value proposition, and means our governance token is not directly competing with our product.

Over time the system eventually reaches equilibrium (insofar as anything actually reaches and maintains equilibrium in crypto markets). pDAO will only purchase enough RPL to ensure the node is collateralised. As soon as the minimum level is reached the automatic purchases stop.

Sure. I’m copying from a response I made to Jasper previously, please lmk if you have more questions.

The RPL requirement protects against centralised takeover by making it prohibitively expensive to become the majority of the validator set. If a centralised entity, or group of, control too large a share of the validator set they are able to make viable threats to the protocol or have outsized impact on it (“nice TVL you got there, shame if a huge number of NOs exited simultaneously”).

Let’s imagine the RPL requirement did not exist today. NOs can earn 14% commission on borrowed ETH and there is no need for additional collateral on top of the ETH bond. How might a centralised entity take advantage of that?

One option would be to empty the RP deposit pool using Lido ETH and have centralised NOs run smartnodes. Thanks to the 14% commission Lido could pay NOs their usual rate and the DAO would profit at the expense of rETH holders. Or they could split the extra profit so everybody wins - except rETH holders and those who care about decentralisation.

The RPL requirement is the only thing that prevented that scenario from occurring in the past, and the rework removes it without providing any replacement protection. RPIP-59 has some mechanisms that would slow it down but these could be avoided with sockpuppetry.

Ofc under the rework things would be different due to changes in commission, but without RPL collateral the attack vector remains. This attack would be viable if no_share is high enough to make it profitable.

FWIW, this issue came up before in NodeSet’s review of the tokenomics and was never addressed by the proposal authors. Some seem to think that because ETH-only NOs do not have voting power in pDAO there is no risk, but as Wander explained this is incorrect:

The centralization concern isn’t for governance, it’s for key-man risk and consequently rETH safety. If Coinbase has 90% of validators, then rETH is essentially cbETH with some extra complexity (risk). Because RP is permissionless, there’s no way to prevent this outcome unless the portion of ETH-only minipools is limited (Lido is going with 10% for these reasons).

There is nothing in the rework proposal that protects against this outcome. The only solution offered by Samus and Val was:

Obviously this would leave to a mass exodus of NOs - home stakers included - and is not a viable solution to the problem. But it is the only one offered by the rework proposal.

I totally agree this is the important question. After reading this post, I don’t believe the pDAO is put in a position to answer it. The 1kx ideas seem to be in a very early stage and as presented here don’t amount to a coherent proposal that can be considered for vote.

I would appreciate someone from 1kx answering these questions I had so far.

Delegation

  • Under what conditions is delegating to a node allowed?
  • Under what conditions is undelegating from a node allowed?
  • How does delegated RPL interact with RPL the operator stakes themselves?
  • How is “a share of validator rewards” calculated in case of: multiple people delegating RPL, set of people delegating changing over time, going above maximum, when operator uses the smoothing pool, when “delegate of last resort” is active?

Commission Structure

  • What happens to existing node operators when max_commission_rate is changed?
  • Can the operator change no_share? Under what conditions and how?
  • What value is proposed for recollateralization_share? How does it interact with the other shares when active?
  • What does “strategically allocated between delegate_share and extra_reth_share” mean? Is there a setting? What is the proposed value?

Collateralisation

  • How are you addressing system brittleness? How does profitability of a megapool compare to a solo staker assuming 3% solo APY and 1.5% RPL value loss per year due to supply inflation?
  • What is no_share for nodes that are in the “first n validator” state and are collateralized with pDAO-owned RPL? If they exist, what happens with pDAO owned rewards?
  • Where do funds to collateralize “first n validators” with pDAO-owned RPL come from? Can we ensure we don’t run out of funds? If so, how? If not, how many “first n validator” nodes can we support? What happens after?

Protocol-owned RPL

  • Is recollateralization_share the only source of protol-owned RPL?
  • How long will it take to bring a node back to minimum that has dropped to 5% for the proposed (or a range of options for) recollateralization_share?
  • What happens when a node with protocol as “delegate of last resort” reaches the minimum?
  • Can you provide estimates for how much RPL the pDAO would aquire over say 3 years, how that compares to total RPL supply and how much impact pDAO delegating to protocol-aligned operators could have?

Sublinear Bond Curves

  • Can you share your research that shows there is further room to safely enhance capital efficiency?
  • You give an example of C(1)=4 ETH and p=⅔. Does your research show these values to be safe? Why did you call it an example? What is the proposal?

Deposit Queue

  • You mention pDAO delegating RPL at variable commission rates here. Is this the “first n validator” idea mentioned earlier or in addition to it?
  • Where is pDAO RPL for delegating coming from? How does the proposal ensure enough funds or what happens if funds run out? Any estimate of size of this programm?
  • How does prioritization of “lowest validator count”, “lowest no_share” or “highest staked or delegated RPL” work? What happens when these values change for operators in queue?

Role of collateral

This is only mentioned in the FAQ and not part of the proposal.

  • What are the proposed changes to how RPL collateral is used?
  • What is the proposed penalty system?
  • How does it interact with the delegation system? (Multiple delegators, potentially including pDAO, mix of delegation and self stake)
3 Likes

At maturity, the LST governance token competes with the LST itself. This does not seem like a desirable outcome or sensible product strategy.

Why not? BTW, are you aware UARS have knobs to make token less competitive if necessary?

Under our proposal the reason for owning RPL at maturity would be continuing RPL yield.

Too fast. Current tokenomics looks good under maturity, but it’s not clear if reaching maturity is possible with that tokenomics. We have a death spiral unfolding the last year, and I have no reason to believe that separation of RPL and ETH parties in the system may have any impact on this dynamics. It is too risky to own RPL before maturity, so we can see what I described earlier – in case of bear market RPL holders would prefer to sell and the only party that have a strong incentive to buy in your proposal is pDAO. You can limit pDAO, but you end up in a state where no one wants to buy and supply any more RPL and pDAO has already staked all its RPL => no more validators and the protocol is stagnant (tending more to reduction rather than growth due to inflation).

I’m copying from a response I made to Jasper previously, please lmk if you have more questions.

Okay, I see. I think that ultimately, the likelihood of CA depends on 1) the yield and 2) the will. If you try to reduce the yield for whales, then we may never reach maturity. So you have to live with big actors, and I guess there’s a possible way to limit CA growth if necessary. As for the will, I doubt we can stop evil actor, simply bc, we can’t tell who is good and who pretends to be good.

Would you kindly answer the question “what are the proposed collateral amounts for LEB4 and lesser LEBs”? I think this is important missing piece because these numbers might allow us to predict some system dynamics. Shell we expect a shortcut to a maturity or another death spiral like we got with the advent of LEB8?

First of all: what the actual fuck. Private discussions are private. How I word things does in fact depend on my audience. How much I think before I type does too. If I am kindly spending my personal time giving you feedback on an early draft (which is what this comes from), I don’t expect to have it thrown in my face. This is incredibly poor form.

To answer the question anyhow, it’s pretty darn easy to overpay some centralized folks while still paying some small operators enough. The groups aren’t simply two monoliths with a single price point. I’ve discussed this multiple times (here’s an instance from 7/10 Discord and it even came up in our DMs before that). Here’s an illustration:

Here you see we’re “overpaying” everyone in the green and blue groups, most people in the orange group, and half the people in the red group. We are paying some folks in the orange/red/black groups exactly enough. Lacking a functional method of price discrimination (the economics term), there’s not a good way to pay everyone the “correct” amount. Where by correct here, we mean to squeeze every penny out of them so that they are barely choosing to be NOs.

It has been 28 days of actively working while not disclosing this information. I don’t think that is, in fact, excellent.


I am no longer treating this as a good faith discussion.
I have been personally attacked twice:

  • Here you say that I am treating this as an academic exercise and not treating the protocol seriously Discord
  • Here you outright say that I have given up on decentralization: Discord

And now you have posted private communications of ours publicly, perhaps in some kind of attempt to embarrass me?

This is unacceptable behavior, and I will not engage further with you.

For anyone else - if you want a specific response from me on something mike has said, I’m happy to provide that to you/the community. Just tag me.

4 Likes

Hi Mike,

Intro

There are significant challenges I see with ironing out implementation details for your proposal. More importantly, I think we have fundamental disagreements that can’t be resolved with implementation nuances.

I wanted to start by saying I was surprised to read your post and find such a strong emphasis of “centralization concerns” around rpl.rehab.

You did not mention any of them in your original post/follow up:

https://dao.rocketpool.net/t/1kxs-thoughts-and-feedback-on-the-2024-tokenomics-rework/3073
https://dao.rocketpool.net/t/1kxs-thoughts-and-feedback-on-the-2024-tokenomics-rework/3073/6

In searching the discord the first mention I saw from you that include “central” was just a few days ago on July 11th (except when you were responding to initial centralization concerns I brought up about 1kx’s proposal).

Your new post shows a drastic shift, from optimism around your proposal to pessimism of the existing proposal. The intro to your new post includes concerns around

  • centralized takeover of the validator set

  • reductions in staked RPL/downward pressure on price

  • diminished protocol economic security/malicious actors controlling all the stake

  • threatens to the stability/value/security/integrity of the entire governance system

  • extreme centralization risk

  • authors are nonetheless pushing forward with this risky and economically-flawed proposal

A quick search showed you mentioned “central” over 60 times in the new post, and it was the topic you were most eager to debate in the discord… Since it seems to be the most important topic to you now I’ll just focus on that one

Centralization concerns

1kx proposal

You address the topic the most directly here:

Our design includes two key components to help protect against centralization:

  • Direct democracy from RPL holders
  • pDAO delegation

An RPL holder who delegates to a protocol-aligned NO is effectively casting a vote for that NO. Their delegation will allow that NO to scale up their validator count faster and more cheaply than NOs who are not aligned with the protocol.

We expect delegates to factor in their individual financial returns when making delegation decisions but we also expect them to consider the charter values and overall health of the protocol.

The second mechanism, pDAO delegation, gives pDAO a mechanism to balance the economies of scale enjoyed by larger operators. pDAO can give home stakers a boost over the centralized entities, allowing protocol-aligned NOs to compete on an equal footing no matter how small they are.

This allows pDAO to directly counter the economies of scale problem that plagues all staking systems, in a way that does not negatively impact rETH APY.

The core challenge I see with your proposal is how can it be sybil resistant? You state that the pDAO can effectively vote to subsidize the growth of “protocol-aligned NOs”, but how should the DAO go about determining this? What’s to stop centralized entities from pretending to be solo stakers to attract delegation? It sounds like a nightmare to have our discord flooded with users seeking out delegations, and I see no way to differentiate between the “solo staker” types we really want, and those just pretending in order to acquire delegations to subsidize more validators.

You also hope to rely on the “direct democracy of RPL holders” to delegate based off of ethos (“charter values/health of protocol”, and also to determine “protocol aligned actors”), while also introducing a system with financial incentives that lead to quite the opposite. Under your proposal NO’s set their own commission, and the lower they set their commission the higher they can set their “delegate_share”. Under this model the centralized entities with “economies of scale” can afford to set lower NO commissions to pay larger amounts of RPL to their “delegate_shares”, in turn subsidizing further growth of their validator set at the expense of small NOs who can’t compete.

rpl.rehab proposal

The explicit goals under the rework is to make Rocket Pool the most attractive venue possible for solo/home staker types. We try to open the tent as wide as possible to allow the largest set of NOs to participate. This includes removing the RPL requirement. I don’t think RPL can be used as a good barometer for decentralization, since the most Ethereum-aligned node operators we could attract may be anonymous ETH-Only participants who migrate from solo staking to come join Rocket Pool (and they have often voiced the RPL requirement as the most important reason they have yet to join). Similarly, large entities can find ways to work around the costs of the RPL requirement (in ways more difficult for home stakers) through borrowing/lending or other whale marriages that are likely to accelerate under Houston. Another defense of the proposal is that enabling growth in the protocol protects it by creating a higher cost to attack it. As knoshua put it: “I can take over a protocol with 2 validators. I can’t take over a protocol with 200k validators”. I think the proposals you put forward add friction to the system, which stunts growth and deters solo/home-staker types from easily scaling. Centralized entities may likely game the system and jump through hoops more easily than home stakers could (the previous Aave borrowing/self-delegation approach being one such example). The end result is things also become much more complicated and much less predictable for the protocol/node operator and RPL valuation. For example:

Under your proposal every node could end up potentially having different: NO_shares, Delegate_shares, Recollateralisation_share, and Extra_rETH_shares. Even simple questions now have complicated answers:

  • What is the rETH total commission? How much do NOs earn? How much does your delegated RPL earn? How much is protocol owned? The answer to all the previous questions is “it depends”, and “it depends on tons of moving variables across all of the validators”, and requires participants to be highly aware of pvp dynamics (instead of rpl.rehab where all validators pay out the same, all effective RPL earns the same, and surplus share revenue is a simple predictable value)
  • Steering the entire protocol ship also becomes difficult due to all the different types of validators (vs Universal Adjustable values that apply to all validators). It would almost makes Rocket Pool more like separate stakewise vaults rather than a single protocol managed by the DAO.

The worst case scenario seems more likely to me: the protocol becomes unattractive to everyone (especially relative to competitors), and Rocket Pool fades into irrelevance.

Generally I think the most decentralized systems are the ones that have the lowest barrier to entry and cast the largest net. I think Ethereum is our best example we can attempt to follow. Ethereum strives to enable solo stakers (and there are plenty of them), but centralized actors will likely always have an edge in profitability. The strength and censorship resistance of the network lies in the long tail of small Node Operators and home stakers, and it is a remarkable success that Rocket Pool is a primary contributor to that validator set. THE key feature of Ethereum in my mind, is that it is permissionless and credibly neutral. There is a difference between centralization on top of the base layer due to things out of the base layer’s control (Ethereum: users staking through Coinbase, Rocket Pool: economies of scale concerns you brought up), vs the base layer picking and choosing which NOs get more validators/rewards (your solution). On Ethereum, the base layer treats all validators the same, and I think the same should be true for Rocket Pool. Ultimately I don’t think anyone should be picking who is right and wrong for Rocket Pool, this goes against the permissionless ethos Ethereum champions and Rocket Pool followed. I think at this point if you make a system attractive to solo/home stakers, it will be even more attractive to those with economies of scale. If this wasn’t true and was a trivial problem to solve (through delegation), then we should see other systems successfully implementing this, but I don’t know of any. There are other L1’s and LST’s that have tried delegation as a core feature and none of them are as decentralized as Ethereum. Similarly, if the only way to earn competitive rewards as a solo staker was attracting delegations, I think the entire system would be less valuable.

As Jasper put it: “Ultimately the question boils down to: Does a delegation system create a more decentralized network than raw economics”

I think the answer is no.

6 Likes